Stuck in SNOW, ICE refuses to run, suspect VDIM

[spookysco]

Evan,

1. Chill out, calm down, take deep breaths.

2. It's shocking you're a doctor and can't see what I'm talking about. It's like you totally trust technology and couldn't do your job to save your (your patients) life without it, a sad statement indeed.

3. You have obviously never been stuck in snow to the point where "rocking a vehicle" (you would have learned) is beneficial and has merit beyond "hearing the engine go vroom"...

You see, by creating motion it is possible to reposition the vehicle so traction is possible.

4. Your point of "people much smarter"... blah blah, is very immature of you as you have never met me OR the "people" who were involved with designing the Hybrid Synergy Systems.

5. When you have experience with these things then feel free to comment, until then leave the comments to those who have experience with them and concentrate on what you presumably do best, being a doctor.

Sco

[efusco]

Originally posted by spookysco@Dec 26 2006, 02:39 AM
1.  Chill out, calm down, take deep breaths.

I am, and have been, quite chilled and calmed down, and I'll keep my breathing slow and even thank you. You, sir, OTOH, have been the one to blame a vehicle for your own inadequacies and errors and talking about selling the thing after a few hours of getting yourself stuck in a snow drift...who's the overreacting one? I've gone to great lengths to calmly and clearly explain to you exactly how and why the system functions the way it does. It has limitations, yes, but your inability to understand those limitaions doesn't mean I'm overreacting.

BTW, calling someone a fool, getting a brusk reply, then telling the person to calm down is a bit ridiculous don't you think?

2.  It's shocking you're a doctor and can't see what I'm talking about.  It's like you totally trust technology and couldn't do your job to save your (your patients) life without it, a sad statement indeed.

No connection b/w my being a doctor and seeing what you're saying. I see and understand what you're saying, what I'm telling you is that your interpretation of your experience is wrong. You insist on relating it to a traditional vehicle. The Prius is designed and will respond in a different, not worse, way.

3.  You have obviously never been stuck in snow to the point where "rocking a vehicle" (you would have learned) is beneficial and has merit beyond "hearing the engine go vroom"...

3 years living in Alaska and I've been stuck a number of times. I'm quite familiar with the various techiques of getting oneself both stuck and unstuck. The 'rocking' process will work in some situations...but not in all. If the traction is so limited that such a techinique will not work then the HiHy won't let you do it lest it damage the car...I think I've mentioned that once or twice above.

4.  Your point of "people much smarter"... blah blah, is very immature of you as you have never met me OR the "people" who were involved with designing the Hybrid Synergy Systems.

No, but I've been driving, learning about, studying, and answering questions about the Prius and it's various systems for over 3 years now. I've read many technical articles and talked with people with advanced engineering degrees who are familiar with this vehicle. I dare say my comprehension of the system exceeds yours by many fold.

5.  When you have experience with these things then feel free to comment, until then leave the comments to those who have experience with them and concentrate on what you presumably do best, being a doctor.

I do have such experience and I will continue to comment. When you can see things through clearer glasses and see your own roll in getting stuck perhaps you'll realize that the design limitations of the vehicle are for your own good. I have many areas of knowledge and experience...being a physician is but one.

[rcc]

Evan-

I used to race cars on ice. Forty two years of that to be exact, with season championships in eight different classes. It did not enter my mind to run the HH competitively on ice, but I did wonder how the systems would work on ice.

Sometimes the ice surface is pebbly, crunchy snow, similar to some road coverings, I have driven my HH in the past two winters. I have been quite pleased with the handling of my HH in all these situaions.

I am concerned about this report though. Occasionally the surface of my own driveway approaches a glare ice condition, just as smooth as a skating rink that has just been refinished. If I try to go slightly uphill to the street and the HH thinks it is stuck and won't even try, what do I do to reset this? I am unclear if this could place me in a glare ice situation with no ability to move at all. It appears this fellow got to the place where the systems shut down and refused to even spin a wheel a little, so putting sand under a couple of wheels would not have helped.

BTW, where do you practice? I am a Pharm.D. in a children's hospital.

Rich Carroll

[efusco]

Yea, it could get you into a 'no go' situation...you just won't be able to spin no matter what...I've ordered myself a set of Shur-Grip Z tire cables just for a situation like this...There should be a thread showing exactly what I ordered. I hope/plan to never need to use them, but I will be taking my first trip to the ski slopes in Colorado in this vehicle. I'm familiar w/ the aggressive TRAC from my Prius and just didn't want to get into a bind like the OP.

[spookysco]

I understand what you are saying.

I find it ironic the time you actually NEED traction, the vehicle totally shuts down and prevents ANY attempt to gain traction. Evan is "getting it" by correlating my experience with similar circumstances which could result in the same behavior.

Bring chains or whatever else you can to assist you. I see you're planning on coming to Colorado, welcome... This is where I live and where this entire incident happened.

There should be a way for the vehicle to determine if it's really moving and slipping, then act accoring. OR if it's just spinning, NOT MOVING, and act according. Clearly these are two different circumstances which should dictate totally different responses.

Happy New Year gentlemen.

Sco

[Aztecian]

This is a little disconcerting being as we dumped a Volvo XC90 for this and reliabilty issues. My wife called me one day stuck on a hill and the car(Volvo) would not move. A big truck had forced her to slow way down and the VSC just kept taking power out until she was at a dead stop. It would not respond at all to any throttle input. She ended up having to back about 200 yards and get a run at it. It again slowed all the way up the hill but she was able to crest it before the car came to a complete stop. LUCKILY there was no other traffic approaching her from behind!! In my opnion this is a MUCH too aggressive VSC.
There needs to be a mode where it will at least turn both axles at a slow enough speed to not damage the motors but still allow some forward progress. Even our Seqouia allowed one to turn off the VSC by locking the center diff.
I just drove Wolf Creek yesterday, in my 99 4WD F250, and saw numerous vehicles stalled on the West ascent because of deep snow. I wonder how many were stuck because their VSC disabled the drive axles. Kind of dangerous to attempt backing up on a 7% grade, snow and ice covered road.
Toyota needs to come up with a load that will not totally disable the drive axles and still protect it. It can be done!!

[firepa63]

I think you're confusing vehicle stability control (VSC) with traction control (TC).

[Aztecian]

Nope, I'm not confusing the them. I refuse to use two acronyms to describe systems that are so integrated with each other that for all intents and purposes they are the same system.

Vehicle Stabilty control- Modulates the throttle and applies braking forces when it senses a yaw not commanded by the steering wheel or senses wheel spin caused by excessive throttle use or weight shift in a turn.
Traction Control-Modulates the throttle and applies braking forces when it senses any difference in speed between any of the four wheels.
In my mind they should be labeled with a common term and VSC fits the bill.

[Donrim]

Originally posted by Aztecian@Jan 14 2007, 05:19 PM
I refuse to use two acronyms to describe systems that are so integrated with each other that for all intents and purposes they are the same system.......
In my mind they should be labeled with a common term .......

[snapback]2111[/snapback]

Toyota agrees with you.

They call the new system VDIM (Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management). VDIM is brand new in the Highlander Hybrid for 2006 and new for Toyota in general – it’s not offered on the non-hybrid Highlander.

VDIM manages all functions including ABS with EBD, brake assist, traction control, vehicle stability control, and regenerative braking. It also controls the electric power steering response for the first time by managing power assist torque levels during a skid to prevent the driver from turning the steering wheel excessively which could worsen the situation.

Auto reviewers have praised the improved response with VDIM. Without VDIM, the various systems operate independently of each other. VDIM integrates all the functions under common control for a more seamless and controlled response. The old VSC system begins to respond only after the vehicle is already in a skid and tends to react somewhat violently to bring the vehicle back in control while VDIM begins to respond before the skid begins to occur and its action is much smoother, accurate, and stable.

[hihybrid]

Originally posted by firepa63@Jan 14 2007, 11:33 AM
I think you're confusing vehicle stability control (VSC) with traction control (TC).

[snapback]2106[/snapback]

Stability control only comes on if you are sliding sideways or about to flip. Traction control is like if your tires are slipping or spinning while attempting to move liek you said your Volvo was doing. Unless she was going over 10 MPH while sliding sideways down a hill it was probaly Trac control.